Something going on at Ocho Tulum?

[Heather in Paradise]

Last night at about 8.30 pm, I was driving down the beach road past Ocho Tulum and noticed a LOT of big trucks/trailers and activity going on, and people running about hither and thither. I thought MAYBE it's some big movie shoot, but I also thought it might be trouble brewing and that they were clearing out. Can't find anything in any online news sources, does anyone have the skinny?:confused:

Later today I'll try to go by and find more info, but I'm not going to get too nosey.:o

[Margoinmexico]

It seems they've been invaded.......which means that the Feds came in and took over the property. :eek: That's all I know right now.....not good news for Ken or the reservations that have been made.......I would recommend contacting Ocho through email if you have reservations right now. Nightmare.

OH yeah, and Heather....what were you doing on the Beach road without calling me and Mindy to have a drink!!!?

[Heather in Paradise]

That sucks, man! How scary it must feel. :(

Margo, I was on a mission, but as of one week ago, I now live in Tulum, so we'll get together at some point, preferably sooner rather than later. I'm busier than I've ever been in my life with the transition and job(s), but I'll come up for air soon. I can't wait to meet you!:)

[Lynnette]

Ocho is my favorite beach club, so this is really bad news!!! :( Hopefully they can get it straightened out quickly, but if it's ejido property, it might be a long time. It took, what seemed like years, for Elizabeth and Jorge to get Suenos back.

[PhyllisB]

That's because it *was* years! I think it was maybe 3 years all together? Or close to it anyway.

Craziness.


Ocho is my favorite beach club, so this is really bad news!!! :( Hopefully they can get it straightened out quickly, but if it's ejido property, it might be a long time. It took, what seemed like years, for Elizabeth and Jorge to get Suenos back.

[mayaflya]

Ocho is my favorite beach club, so this is really bad news!!! :( Hopefully they can get it straightened out quickly, but if it's ejido property, it might be a long time. It took, what seemed like years, for Elizabeth and Jorge to get Suenos back.

That is sad....we just discovered Ocho Tulum this summer and had one of our best meals there...

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2651/3693262407_fb84b6c778_o.jpg

[beachreader]

Wow, that's a shocker! :eek:

Hope they can work things out quickly.

[minniemex]

That is totally awful! It seems so terrible that these places have to endure this ejido thing to begin with. It seems they wait until the property has real value and then step in. It really makes no sense to me, but then alot about the Mexican system makes no sense. I just really feel for Ocho.

[itsjustme]

So sad that all the hard work the owners and employees do to get things up running...then BAMMM fed's locker up.

Feel for all involved with this unnecessary heartbreak. Plus, all the employees out of work.

[pepper]

Absolutely awful.
What a nightmare for everyone.

[Jana]

Wow! I was really looking forward to checking out their restaurant. How horrible for the owners, employees and people who have reservations. :(

[sctx]

but I'll come up for air soon. I can't wait to meet you!:)

watch yourself... she's like an American Squish :eek:

[ildipoo]

Awful news! Glad I didnt book that place. Does this happen often?

[pepper]

Happens? - yes, it does.

Often? - no, thank goodness.

[Lynnette]

Awful news! Glad I didnt book that place. Does this happen often?

Yes it does happen to restaurants & hotels, but as pepper said not that often. We were at Suenos just one week before they were forcibly shut down. Do a search about property closings or you might find this thread interesting. http://www.tulum.info/showthread.php?t=2447& (http://www.tulum.info/showthread.php?t=2447&highlight=hotels+closing)
highlight=hotels+closing (http://www.tulum.info/showthread.php?t=2447&highlight=hotels+closing)

Where did you end up booking........I think I missed that. :confused:

[etm]

we are booked at ocho tulum next wednesday through saturday - is there any chance (even the tiniest, slightest!) things could be resolved in a week? has anyone heard what is happening today?

[Heather in Paradise]

I've heard, and I don't know if this is true so take with a grain of salt, that the property has been in litigation for 9 years by an out-of-state owner, along with a few other properties. It wouldn't be unheard of for one property to be sold twice, and if it's true, it's a damn shame for both parties.

[Malisa]

I know that Ocho has been in contact with Mil Amores to take some of their reservations. You might want to shoot John an e-mail and see whether they already have you covered.

[Margoinmexico]

I know that Ocho has been in contact with Mil Amores to take some of their reservations. You might want to shoot John an e-mail and see whether they already have you covered.

:wave:Yeah, Great idea Malissa....I think the likelihood of them being open to honor reservations is pretty low, but sure they will do something for their booked guests....they are responsible people and all that.....

No one will ever really be able to understand how and why this has happened, obviously rumors abound. I always try to stay out of the why's and how's at these times and just send them all some good juju..they and thier employees can sure use some of that.:o

BTW, welcome to the forum etm....sorry for your position....but hope you have a great trip to TULUM!

[beachreader]

we are booked at ocho tulum next wednesday through saturday - is there any chance (even the tiniest, slightest!) things could be resolved in a week? has anyone heard what is happening today?


Ooh, I hope they have you booked at Milamores already, that's a beautiful place, and you'll feel much more alone on the beach down that way.

[LilS]

We are also booked for Ocho in January. Joined this forum because it is to be our 1st trip to Tulum. I have not heard back from Ocho re our reservation - has anyone else?

[Grasshopper]

We are also booked for Ocho in January. Joined this forum because it is to be our 1st trip to Tulum. I have not heard back from Ocho re our reservation - has anyone else?

LilS welcome to the board... if it is in January you are going, I would hang tight for a few weeks (I know that is hard to do when you are getting so close) But I am sure they will be in touch. I would though continue to follow the story and keep tabs on what you see and hear. This board is great for getting to the truth!

No worries, you will have a blast!:D

[minniemex]

We are also booked for Ocho in January. Joined this forum because it is to be our 1st trip to Tulum. I have not heard back from Ocho re our reservation - has anyone else?

First, welcome!

I am sure they are going to be contacting everyone and are probably busy taking care of those who are coming for the next two weeks, then the holiday season, and then finally January. I know it is hard not knowing, but they are not going to do anything with January until they know for sure what their exact situation is. This will take awhile, as they are on Mexican time. This of course is stressful to you, but I feel that things will work out, no matter what happens with Ocho.

[Margoinmexico]

These are wise words.....from Grasshopper and Minnie.....sorry for your situation.....just remember, no matter where you end up, you'll be in Tulum....:palmtree::palmtree::palmtree::sun::palmt ree::palmtree::palmtree:

Haven't heard anything new about ocho, but pretty sure their dream is over for now......:mad: (I don't like using that smiley....)

[minniemex]

Haven't heard anything new about ocho, but pretty sure their dream is over for now......:mad: (I don't like using that smiley....)

Thats because he isn't smiling......

When you say Margo, "pretty sure their dream is over for now", do you mean they aren't going to fight for their property, or that they are going to fight and it will take forever??

[Margoinmexico]

Thats because he isn't smiling......

:wave:You know I love it when we are all smiling!!!!!:):beerchug::)


When you say Margo, "pretty sure their dream is over for now", do you mean they aren't going to fight for their property, or that they are going to fight and it will take forever??

:wave:I dont' know how to answer that Minnie, The public will never really know what is going on behind the scenes in a situation like this, which is probably how it should be.....Im sure they are going to fight, who wouldn't, and that they have been fighting, but it will probably take forever....they removed EVERYTHING from the property from what I understand. We're talking sheets, towels, kitchen stuff, beds. (Hey, I just BOUGHT all that stuff for my new place....:rolleyes:)

I have always been amazed that Suenos stuck it out and won their place back...that would take some seriously deep pockets, not to mention what a wreck their place must have been after years of no maintenance....one reason to support them to be sure.....:star:

[etm]

We finally heard back from ocho and they said:

"Sorry for the delay in my answer, but last tuesday the hotel was closed for the goberment, I don`t know right when will be resolved, only I can help you to find another hotel close to ocho similar facilities and refund all the money."

So that's good at least. I'm still really disappointed! I've only eaten lunch at Ocho and was so excited to stay there for a few days this trip. Maybe next year?!?!?

etm

[Margoinmexico]

:wave:Thanks for posting that etm....sorry for your trouble, but now you get to start the dream of picking a place all over again.....good luck! (I would start working on getting that refund RIGHT AWAY)

[KennyG]

We finally heard back from ocho and they said:
"Sorry for the delay in my answer, but last tuesday the hotel was closed for the goberment, I don`t know right when will be resolved"


That is so unjust! :-(

Right after I stayed at Suenos, they were shut down for 2 years, which also made me sad.

[topshelf]

That is so unjust! :-(

Right after I stayed at Suenos, they were shut down for 2 years, which also made me sad.

Agreed. Staying at Suenos this summer I just kept thinking how hard it must have been on Jorge and Elizabeth, etc. to watch helplessly as such a special place was shut down. Yet they don't seem bitter or anything now. They handle it better than I would!

Hopefully the Ocho thing is settled quicker.

[KennyG]

Someone who was staying at Ocho at the time of the takeover tells their story in a new review on TA. Unfortunately, they dinged Ocho over it, inappropriately, in my opinion.

[dannynoonan]

this makes me sick, ive stayed at ocho and feel bad for ken and john and belen. I was planning on a few happy hours at ocho next month and am more than bummed.

My wife and I have been going back and forth about buying property in tulum for some time, this is what holds us back!!!

[beachreader]

As far as I know, it's only the beachfront properties that have this issue. On the other side of the beach road, I believe the titled land begins.

[LuvCityLivin]

Okay, I'm sorry - I'm fairly new to this forum and have never been to Tulum and just want to know, what the heck are you guys talking about??? I'm reading all these posts and I'm totally confused! You're saying the government just comes in and takes over properties? Could somebody fill us newbies in?

[dannynoonan]

not sure what that means beachreader, all of och's rooms are on the other side of the beach road, any hope for ocho?

[beachreader]

not sure what that means beachreader, all of och's rooms are on the other side of the beach road, any hope for ocho?


No, all of Ocho's rooms are on the beach side of the beach road. It's the beachfront properties that have this risk, rare as it is.


LuvCity, this is not a common occurrence on the beach, but it has happened once or twice in the past few years. It's a long and complicated explanation, and still very murky, but try doing a search on "ejido" or "ejidal", or the Suenos Tulum closure.

I don't think anyone here really knows what has happened at Ocho or who is at fault, and we probably won't ever know the whole story. Suffice to say that it doesn't happen often and every effort is always made to accommodate guests affected.

[PhyllisB]

Yep, it's a complicated mess. My (bare bones and possibly inaccurate) understanding is that the indigenous people own the land and can give/rent/sell the title to someone else. I don't know the relationship with the government authorities, but titles are sometimes taken back even if all the paperwork was done appropriately. This happened to Suenos Tulum several years ago, and they fought it and won - but it took a few years, lots of patience, and probably lots of money to fight it out in the courts.

It doesn't happen often, but it does happen. It's all about the $$$$$.

[Margoinmexico]

As far as I know, it's only the beachfront properties that have this issue. On the other side of the beach road, I believe the titled land begins.

:wave:Not quite.... there is at least 400 meters deep of ijido on the jungle side of the road, and some of it has the same Federal Zone issues of being Federal Property for 20 meters from the natural water line of a body of water, ie: the cenotes. There are even parts of town that are ijido, and the first part of the Sian Ka'an, but then the titled land starts, then Punta Allen is kind of iffy.

[beachreader]

Ah! Thanks for the clarification, Margo; I thought the beach road had something to do with something, but I stand corrected!

[lazydog]

I just read this post on the LG forum from Kay, they do bookings for Ocho.

"Yesterday we were officially notified that Ocho is closed. Guests with reservations there are being given the option of staying at Blue Tulum by the Ocho management. "

Ocho to Blue Tulum hmmm. Wonder if I had the choice if I'd transfer or look for something else on the beach? I've seen some food photos from Blue Tulum that looked amazing!

[Malisa]

There are a lot of good things about Blue Tulum,including room service, massages and a nice bar. I hate to say it, but the food at Blue Tulum is only "ok".

[elvo73]

That's so sad! I hope they can resolve their situation soon, is not good when you put all your effords and the best of you and then something like this happend. I wish them good luck

[susan]

there is a small article on tulumliving dot com regarding this

[LilS]

FYI we were booked at Ocho in January and I was able to get us in at Suenos. Thanks to all who responded with suggestions. I did hear from former Ocho employee who is now working at La Vie Laktea. She said the closing was hard on the employees but luckily with high season coming up most were able to get jobs elsewhere.

[PhyllisB]

You'll love Suenos! One of my favorites!

[isismama]

what does that mean?

[Margoinmexico]

what does that mean?


:wave:

Welcome to the board Isismama, you live in the area?

Sorry honey, but what does WHAT mean? (I´m not to bright sometimes...)

Be well,

margo:boat:

[PhyllisB]

what does that mean?

Sorry, Isismama -- what does what mean?

[Margoinmexico]

Sorry, Isismama -- what does what mean?

:wave:Great minds Phyllis.......:p

[isismama]

Someone said someone was a squish or something like that....

I was just reading about Ocho..wow que terrible! I have been there a few times. It has its issues but it was great. Yeah I know Blue Tulum tooo but its an all inclusive and its like you could be in Miami or Maui, or anywhere in the world but it has no beach. I have a friend who is coming to Ocho in Dec and they have not responded to her yet about the situation. But I know she doesn't want to stay at an all inclusive. Its just terrible for everyone. Imagine the flight people have paid for and I think it would be hard for people to re-book around the holidaze..hee hee

[isismama]

phyllis...I have family in Minnetonka...how funny

[Margoinmexico]

:wave:Sorry about your friends isismama, but really they haven´t heard ANYTHING and thier reservation is for December????? I would be FREAKING OUT!

has anyone heard if you have the option of saying no to Blue Tulum?

[PhyllisB]

There are a lot of us from Minnesota around here! Something about being drawn to the beach to escape the long winter months, I think!!! :D

[sctx]

Someone said someone was a squish or something like that....



oh.... that was me in reference to Margo being like a twin of a friend of mine and Heather who goes by the nickname "Squish"

[isismama]

You can say no..my friend heard back...they will refund you if you do not want to stay there. However I do not think they are telling you its all inclusive unless you ask. They are being really fair, its not their fault. Guess they were not replying because they are so busy. But if you do not like all inclusive I do not think there are many other options in the area. My friend is not sure what to do.

[Margoinmexico]

oh.... that was me in reference to Margo being like a twin of a friend of mine and Heather who goes by the nickname "Squish"

:wave:Hey Scott, not sure what you are talking about, but hi!

Besos,:beerchug:

M

[Margoinmexico]

You can say no..my friend heard back...they will refund you if you do not want to stay there. However I do not think they are telling you its all inclusive unless you ask. They are being really fair, its not their fault. Guess they were not replying because they are so busy. But if you do not like all inclusive I do not think there are many other options in the area. My friend is not sure what to do.

:wave:Great that she heard from them.....I guess she could just start at the top of the beach and start inquiring.....what a drag. Maybe someone will cancel something and they will get luchy. One thing to think of is it does include food at Blue Tulum and she can always use someone elses beach during the day....

Does anyone know what would happen if you have trip insurance...could you then get a refund on your flight if your hotel closes?

Also, just so everyone knows, refunding is a nightmare for the place....most places operate on the deposit and that money is spent the day it gets there, and then there is the count down to making ends meet until you can bill the other half of the booking...having to refund all those deposits would take some real effort for most places. Lots of experience with that over the dreaded Swine flu.....:eek::eek:

[beachreader]

Actually, it's my understanding that Blue Tulum now has a non-AI option, for those who don't want to be locked in to eating everything there. And I believe that the Ocho re-bookings are getting the non-AI plan.

[pepper]

Actually, it's my understanding that Blue Tulum now has a non-AI option, for those who don't want to be locked in to eating everything there. And I believe that the Ocho re-bookings are getting the non-AI plan.

This is what I understand as well.

[sctx]

:wave:Hey Scott, not sure what you are talking about, but hi!

Besos,:beerchug:

M

Heather will understand;)..... you need to hook up with her soon, she's one cool chica :)

[TulumBuzz]

A lot of people have questions about Ocho Tulum and the seizure that took place two weeks ago. I'm intimately familiar with the back story. The hotel was illegally seized. Armed state police arrived unannounced with orders to evacuate the guests and employees. The seizure was based on a fraud perpetrated on the Mexican courts--a claim by the Garza Ponce family of Monterrey alleging that they hold title to the land on which Ocho Tulum stands.

Ocho Tulum's owner is in high level meetings with topmost officials in both the U.S. and Mexico to get this remedied expediently.

This just in: We've learned that the owners of another Tulum hotel, Ana y Jose, have been recruited by the Garza Ponce family to operate Ocho Tulum this winter season--the word "squatters" comes to mind. That just plain smells bad.

Ocho Tulum's operators are in contact with all of the guests who had reservations for this upcoming winter season. They're referring people to Blue Tulum and in some cases refunding deposits, the honorable thing to do.

Ocho Tulum will be back. Stay tuned. Feel free to comment.

[minniemex]

First off, welcome to our forum TulumBuzz.

I am not surprised at all by your information. We have been accosted by the same scenario before. It seems it is a type of behavior that is still tolerated in Mexico and I don't think that we are going to change it. We will just wait and see what happens.

[pepper]

Does the Garza Ponce family have other property in Tulum? I know there are some hotel owners from Monterrey, but wondering if they are connected.

[Lynnette]

Ran across this on the Ocho site. I hope they're back in their rightful location soon!!!

http://www.ochotulum.com/images/pop-up-1.jpg

[minniemex]

That is quite interesting. I am impressed how they are taking care of their vacationers! Hopefully they take them down to "their" beach for a really great Tulum beach experience.

[BethS.]

I just wanted to let everyone know that Ocho Tulum gave us a complete refund of our deposit. They first offered to transfer us to Blue Tulum which we opted not to do just because we wanted to really be on the beach. They accepted this without question and promised a refund, which came through last week. They were very responsive to emails during the process. I have to say I am really impressed with how they have handled this situation.

[boyscottulum]

The ejido Pino Suarez now "owns" the stretch of beach. While agrarian law specifically prohibits the selling of ejido land, greed, corruption and dreams of foreigners have increasingly escalated demand. Authentic stories of land being "sold" several times over are legendary (and true), but this abominable reality has been insufficient to prevent otherwise intelligent investors from "buying" beach front property. Titles to lands can be purchased through bribes to the highest bidder. Foreigners with FM3 visas essentially have no rights, and are unlikely to succeed in their fight to retain "their" land. Case law proves this, as every single ruling has favored local ejido owners over "those foreigners", who obviously wish nothing more than to "exploit the local peoples and resources for their own selfish and capitalistic purposes." Now that Tulum has been targeted for massive development a la Cancun, the corrupt kleptocracy of Tulum will have a field day. While the illegal invasion and repossession of Ocho is unfortunate and alarming to tourists and investors alike, I fear these perverse acts will become commonplace and will continue to shatter a ficticious tale of a peaceful and beautiful destination. Indeed, for us gringos and canucks and europeans who dream of owning a legitimate business in Tulum, and who work extraordinarily hard to succeed, we will all be forced to wake up to the reality that Tulum is hell in paradise.

[PhyllisB]

I agree that the eijido laws and the way business is done is troubling - and most of us here are concerned about the overdevelopment of Tulum and what's going on there.

But I might also add that not every court decision has backed the eijido owners. Suenos battled in court for 2-3 years and won their property back. They do seem to be the exception rather than the norm (I'm sure it takes a lot of willpower and resources to keep up a legal fight as long as they did), but I thought I'd mention that it is possible.

[HhowieE]

Boyscott,
That was a very long description of what may be happening at Ocho, do you have first hand knowledge that your explanation is indeed the case here?
There are many different stories.

[boyscottulum]

Every decision has favored local ejidatarios vs foreigners. The observation that business owners can have their property invaded at will and must fight for their survival at great personal cost, even with legitimate legal ownership, is consistent with this. The real concern stems from the inability to secure protection by the judicial system, as rulings are provisional at best and susceptible to continuous influence by bribes, and infantile rulings resulting from political pressures. No one, and I mean no one owner of beach property in Tulum is safe, nor will they be, even after earning an initial favorable ruling, for there are no fundamental guarantees to protect their rights over capricious claims by ejido owners, allied with a totalitarian bunch of thugs. Regrettably, this is standard practice, and unwinnable at the end of the day.

[Margoinmexico]

:wave:The risk that the owners take when they buy these properties is known at the time of purchase. I do not agree with what is happening here in Tulum and in other parts of Mexico, I just want to point out that this in NOT new behavior for foreign investment in Tulum. And part of why we are all paying the higher prices for services here. It has to include LOTS of lawyer, accountant and bribe fees. Anyone I know who does own land here, spends a good part of anytime they visit doing legal work. Not fun.

I get to hear a lot of rumors and even a bit of inside info from time to time...we'll never know the real story on what happened at Ocho, or casa Magna or Suenos or any of them....I just thank my lucky stars I don't own any land in Mexico. :sun:

[boyscottulum]

Unfortunately, I am certain that my explanation is indeed applicable here, as it is for all other invasions, many of which go unreported and are fought in the trenches without the benefit of press or forum posts. This is only the tip of the iceberg, I'm, afraid. Sad, but true. There are many stories of hostility in Tulum, but each and every story shows, upon careful analysis, a common pattern of reprehensible greed and abusive behaviour, features which are rewarded and are left unpunished.

[KennyG]

Well, boyscottulum sure is eloquent and precise, amazingly so! It sounds like he knows what he's talking about, and it makes sense since this is the way of the world, so I believe what he's saying even though I know nothing. Well, at least we can pretend it's paradise when we visit, for as long as we're able to visit before it changes too much. We can only hope we won't be kicked out of our hotel. :D

[KennyG]

at least we can pretend it's paradise when we visit

Your name suggests that we boycott Tulum. What good would that do? That's not rhetorical. I really want to know.

[boyscottulum]

Your name suggests that we boycott Tulum. What good would that do? That's not rhetorical. I really want to know.

KennyG: I am in no position to influence actions or beliefs, much less to suggest initiation of a boycott movement against Tulum in the very forum populated by folks whom are obviously enamored by that destination. Thus, such maneuver might undoubtedly prove naive and self-defeating! I am, however, willing to stand to principles and to guide my personal decisions through the voice of my conscience. I repudiate exploitation - of children, animals and nature. I abhor abuse, avarice and deceipt, and am not especially fond of dilettantes or racists. Accordingly, I myself will never go back to Tulum.

[KennyG]

It's great to have principles, but I can't help thinking that these days, no matter where someone goes, what someone does, or what someone buys, he may in some way be indirectly supporting something he doesn't wish to. But I'm not trying to contradict your principles.

[HhowieE]

I regret bringing this thread to top but the facts need to be outed so peoples opinions can be based on law not guesses. The following was taken from another board I frequent.
Happy New Year one and All!
Ron


Trouble shooting guide to any foreign nationals considering the purchase of ejido, or recently privatized ejido property in the restricted zone.

1) Any deal to purchase property that is still part of an ejido should be considered RISKY. Regardless of what you may be told, using a mexican national as presta nombre (borrowed name) or any other means to purchase ejido property in the restricted zone can never be a fail safe proposition regardless of having Powers of Attorney or a Will in place. While many people have successfully "owned" property for years in the name of a prestanombre, there seems to be increasing financial/development pressure that is making that vehicle for holding property ever less stable over time.

2) The litmus for determining if property is actually private, and not still part of the ejido, is possession of an escritura (title) for the parcela or lot from RAN in name of the ejiditario property owner.

(Note that property can be titled and owned privately by an ejido member (ejiditario) without still being part of the ejido land holdings). Privataization can be accomplished through either the Procede "regularization" or dominio pleno process only). Any deals involving property said to be "about to be privatized" should be approached with extreme caution - if at all.)

4) It is advisable that any deposit money paid should be accompanied by a formal compra y venta agreement, best reviewed by a Public Notario's office. A formal compra y venta will be drawn up for privately titled property only, not ejido property. Any purchase agreement other than a formal, approved compra y venta shoud be consider extremely risky. Consideration should also be given to the facts that realtors aren't licensed, escrow accounts are rarely used, and that even deposit money accompanied by a formal compra y venta may be at some risk.

Note here also that even with a compra y venta agreement in place, all members of the ejido are constitutionally entitled to a first right of refusal before the first sale of a property out of the ejido.

5) Final purchase, payment, and transfer of title should be conducted under the supervision of a Public Notario's office only.

6) Final deeds and ownership will be in the name of either a bank trust (fideicomiso) or mexican corporation, not in the name of the foreign national directly, and title insurance is available once the final deed is issued, approximately 2 to 6 months after closing.


MexDog

Thank you sir for well written summary that is important for all potential buyers.

[KennyG]

Well, I suppose a statement of the law doesn't prove there isn't corruption, but I don't know anything about the actual situation.

[SJT]

Wow, the latest posts on this thread are interesting...and sad.